Is he the best? Of course he is! Unless you don't think so...

Ziggy wrote:In his final battle against the frigate... I suppose that probably had some historical basis, but the casualty numbers seemed quite unrealistic to me. What was it... 3 out of 50 for Aubrey and 13 out of 300 for the frogs? I also fail to see how 300 men could remain effectively under guard against two dozen. But if there is some real world equivalent I can cop that, seems slightly unrealistic to me though.

I think we're talking about the fight between the Sophie and the Spanish xebec frigate Cacafuego? O'Brian models this action (and a lot of the book) on the exploits of Lord Cochrane, a favorite also of Forester. This action is taken from the fight between H.M. Sloop Speedy and the Spanish xebec frigate Gamo.

Cochrane's report says:

Cochrane 200:60 wrote:Speedy's force at commencement of action: Fifty four officers, men, and boys, 14 4-pounders. Three killed and 8 wounded.

Gamo's force at commencement of action: Two hundred and seventy-four officers, seamen, and supernumaries. Forty-five marines. Guns, 32. Don Francisco de Torres, the boatswain, and 13 men killed, 41 wounded.

There has occasionally been some doubt about Lord Cochrane's version of things, but I believe this report has never been called into question.

Speedy's casualties are about 20%, the Spanish figures are about 17%. I don't think we ever learn what percentage of the wounded died later or were seriously incapacitated. When you consider that the initial and final ratios was something like 6:1 in favor of the Spanish (about 6.5:1 after) the wonder is not so much that the defeated and demoralized Spanish crew (presumably first driven below and then put in irons) didn't take the ship back, but that they were defeated in the first place.

Clearly moral factors were paramount. Some of them were managed or achieved in the course of the battle. For example both the Spanish captain and the Spanish chief NCO were killed. Others may have been implicit in the nature of the services. Here I am thinking about factors like the organization and experience of the crews. I wonder precisely what the supernumaries were, for example, and how many supernumaries and boys were on the respective sides. I think boy is essentially a rank - "unrated" - by the way, not an age.

Also, is the commander of the vessel included in the numbers of officers and men? Mentioned in the Spanish casualties, certainly, but I'm not sure if Cochrane adds himself or Don Francisco to the totals. In fact, he doesn't really provide totals per se. Were there any unmentioned British supernumaries (not on the complement)? I know that one has to be careful in working with British tallies for land forces because they normally only report rank and file, omitting officers and sergeants. I believe this is just conservatism - harking back to a time not long past when armies were reckoned in "horse (=mounted men) and men (or foot)" with the officers and sergeants omitted. It's not intended to be a misrepresentation, but it can result in confusion when numbers are analyzed later by the uninitiated. For many years the British forces at Waterloo were underestimated by some thousands as a result of this not factor being understood.

The Gamo's 32 guns were "22 long 12-pounders, 8 nines, and 2 heavy carronades" per the body of the letter.

Reference:

Cochrane, Admiral Lord. 2000 (originally 1860). The Autobiography of a Seaman. Introduction by Richard Woodman. The Lyons Press.

Ziggy wrote:Also, in the first book he said that Aubrey was Ugly, has hideous burns on his face, has lost all of one ear and most of the other, is extremely fat, bald, etc, yet in this book people keep saying how attractive he is? Seems to be a bit of flip flopping going on there? He is spectacularly ugly sometimes and then women and Maturin say he is very "attractive" other times? Don't quite get it, and they are definately talking about looks and not personality.

Hoist with his own petard, as it were. Authors occasionally have to rethink things, particularly when they realize that their book was not a isolated thing, but part of an unanticipated series. Otherwise, I think the point is that it is Stephen, who only gradually comes to appreciate Jack's finer points as a person, who considers Jack ugly, and it is Stephen who throughout the series harps on his "obesity." Women, or at least some women, apparently don't notice any of the things that Stephen finds off-putting. When O'Brian allows us a glimpse of Stephen in the eyes of a third person he is generally described as ill-looking, short and thin. Perhaps Stephen is a little jealous, or perhaps he simply looks at things from a different point of view. I don't think Jack is ever described as bald. He does eventually start to gray, to his chagrin.

I'd have to say that I don't really mind some of the things Ziggy considers extraneous, but I have changed over time. The first time I picked up an O'Brian, some years ago, I hated it in one paragraph. Fifteen years later, I loved it. I keep re-trying Lewrie, hoping the same thing with happen. Fortunately for all of us, there are a wide variety of authors to choose from!

susan wrote:Hi Aeneas7c,

I am very interested in Basil Hall (1788–1844), who was a naval officer and a popular author in his time. Here is one sample of POB's work compared to Hall's:

"Muster Clothes at Divisions"

From Treason's Harbour (Chapter 4):

"Mr Calamy," said Captain Aubrey to the young gentleman attached to this division, "tell me what constitutes a well-regulated seaman's kit in high latitudes—a sober, responsible seaman in a King's ship, I mean, not a fly-by-night piss-in-the-corner privateersman that cannot hold his liquour."

"Two blue jackets, sir, one pea jacket, two pair of blue trousers, two pair of shoes, six shirts, four pairs of ...

But couldn't the character have been quoting from the same source? You must admit that it reads as such. It is the type of thing a middie would be required to memorize and be able to recite. Similar to a modern infantryman being required to recite the by-the-manual procedure for dismantling and reassembling an M-16.

This isn't a scholarly work, so some liberty should be allowed, otherwise the book's size could be bloated by footnotes and attributions.

I have read all of the Hornblowers, and much of the Bolitho series, and then smatterings of the rest. Suffice it to say that no author reaches the lofty heights, the impregnable fortress, of Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey and Maturin canon. It is literature, great literature; erudite, elegant, witty, and ever-so-engaging. It simply must be read from start to finish; one cannot read these novels higgledy-piggly. There are several great story arcs within the canon that require the reader to read the volumes (in order) and treat them like chapters in a nearly 7,000 page novel. This is, in my opinion, the finest historical fiction in the English language. O'Brian's favorite author was Jane Austen, and it surely shows in the quality of his writing.

USCG '74-'77

Hear Hear ! Read the novels.Enjoy

I understand very little of what's going on (the nautical terms and descriptions of the military actions), yet I can't stop reading these novels. For me, the relationships between the characters are the strong points. Another strong point is looking at the world through the eyes of 19th century people, Stephen's joy at new birds and bugs, Aubrey wading through the political mire, and a look at the domestic life of sailors and their families. Sometimes I wish for more from Sophie's point of view -- taking care of home and family on her own, with only that harpy mother for help.

My only criticism is that each book ends on something of a cliffhanger, but since I only started reading them after they were all finished, that really doesn't matter. I don't have to wait a year to see what happens next, I just have to get the next book.

I've at last started to buy some of these that I have not read so perhaps I'll be reading the series soon.

Auntie Pam wrote:I understand very little of what's going on (the nautical terms and descriptions of the military actions)

There are a number of factual books aimed at people who want to learn more having read the novels by various authors. Personally I read 'Life in Nelson's Navy' by Dudley Pope (author of the Ramage series) but you'll find many more in the non-fiction section of the website. www.historicnavalfiction.com/index.php/general-hnf-info/non-fiction

Thanks for that -- I'll check it out.

I'm re-reading Two Years Before the Mast by Richard Henry Dana. He gives a bit more background on the technical stuff, but not much.

What I'd really like to find is video instruction -- which sails perform which functions, what happens in different parts of the ship, how a ship's constructions affects sailing capability, etc.

It just amazes me that wooden ships were so sturdy and maneuverable!

i have read both the Hornblower and Aubrey series many times. I became hooked 45 years ago at school when we had to read "the cargo of rice" short story. Our English teacher(a Highland man who had lost a leg in the war0 told me that I would become addicted to forester's novels and he was proved correct. Aubrey and Maturin entered my life about 7 years ago and made a tremendous impact. On serious reflection I find POB a more rounded writer with a great gift for understated humour. Yet Hornblower is such a great character. Let us not bother with attempting to rate them. Enjoy both series as amongst the finest writing in the English language.

Just a quick note on Aubrey's 'obesity'. As has been mentioned, this is a favourite hobby-horse of Dr Maturin's, one which is, if I may say, very common among physicians to this day... I get the feeling that Jack has a tendency to gain a little weight when inactive for any length of time. He's a heavy-sety sort of chap anyway. The burns were, I believe, relatively superficial and would not necessarily cause permanent scarring. My personal stumbling block is 'The Wine-Dark Sea', which after three attempts, I haven't been able to get into. I have no idea why. I shall persevere.

I seem to remember struggling through the Wine Dark Sea for some reason, that and the one where Dr Maturin disappears over the Peruvian mountains (sorry the name escapes me).