Hornblower vs. Jack Aubrey

conaghan wrote:
That would be Lt. Bush. Most of the action in "Lieutenant Hornblower" involves Bush, and the reader sees HH from his viewpoint.

Right, right, Bush. Thank you Conaghan. Such an easy name to forget...

That would be Lt. Bush. Most of the action in "Lieutenant Hornblower" involves Bush, and the reader sees HH from his viewpoint.

Yes; quite a digression for a series to feature one book from another's POV, although, being the only book that included both characters, and had Bush as the superior officer, I can see why he did it.

There is an "unauthorised" bio of O'Brian by Dean King, which sheds a lot of light on the creation of the series. The subject does not come through terribly well, however.

Incidentally, somewhere in the depths I seem to recall hearing that Gene Roddenberry based the character for James T Kirk in Star Trek on Hornblower - can anyone verify this, or am I starting to wander (again)?

Bob,

That is a good question!. I've been slowly growing my addiction over the last 15 years or so. There are several POB related websites, and the publisher Norton books has a POB site. I think the info might be there. Without belaboring the point, there is a commercial aspect to all this, and any successful product makes changes to increase market share, at least a partial explanation for evolution of the characters. I mean this only as a compliment. Many of my favorite authors, Conan-Doyal, Asimov, Heinlein, were very proud of being "professional" writers, IE getting paid.
I've always found a reflection of Holmes-Watson in Aubrey-Maturin, but then I see that in Kirk-Spock also. When I first read POB, back in the early nineties, I dismissed it as "Star Trek under sail", except for technology, there are a lot of similarities in the "set up" of the series. But then Hornblower is specifically mentioned by Roddenberry as a prototype for Kirk. Historically Capt. Hamilton was close friends with his Surgeon M'Millan (?). Hamilton commanded the Surprise when the Hermione was retaken. He installed the 36 gun main mast. M'Millen commanded one of the boats in the Hermione cutting out expedition. And just to add pointless arcane facts: Surprise was one of the ships shelling Ft Mc Henry, leading to the Star Spangled Banner. It wasn't OUR Surprise, being the follow on vessel built in 1912, but interesting non the less. Anyway, there is historical as well as fictional background for Captain-Surgeon friendship.

Lou

Sorry, I don't get as much time to play as I'd like. That nasty work thing gets in the way.

In the early 70's, my roommate was seriously interested in Star Trek. Back then, it was mostly a cancelled TV series, although it was syndicated, and six o'clock found most of the floor in the lounge to watch, as much for company as the show. Anyway, Ed had a "Making of Star Trek" paperback. Interviews with Roddenberry, and copies of memos etc. It mentions the Hornblower connection and "Wagon train to the Stars" as Gene's way of selling the series. Of course to a nineteen year old, the past is a strange country. I found Hornblower in the dark recesses of the library, old books with yellowed pages. It is/was hard for me to imagine how popular that series was, best sellers, "A" list movie stars (Gregory Peck!), etc.
Back when I read SHOGUN (James Clavell), I thought it was science fiction dressed up as history. A voyage to the edges of known space, in an advanced technology vessel, arriving in a land not believed to exist. Strange looking natives, unable to communicate, strange weapons, strange food and of course odd looking but still beautiful women. Years and years later I realized it was the other way around. Theory says there are only seven basic plots etc etc. I have always been struck by the similarities between "High Noon" and "Dirty Harry", one made in the HUAC 50's one made in the riotous 60's. And yet both pit one brave man against a monster intent on destroying society. In both, the power structure is against the hero getting involved, neither hero has a partner he can count on, both use methods frowned upon by society (Will Cain shoots bad guys in the back and sets a business on fire, Harry uses torture and other unsavory methods), both save society from itself, and both are disgusted by the evil required to make good triumph. The point of view is from opposite ends of the political spectrum and both tell the same story, which is Horatio at the Bridge. To a modern audience, Gary Cooper shooting someone is the back is no big deal, but in 1952?
Just this week I "found" some books about the last commercial sailing ships. Capt. Alan Villiers sailed several square riggers in the 30's -50's, and wrote numerous books about his adventures. He also was head of the "Cutty Sark" preservation museum for a while. I have no doubt POB used those books as deep background. The fact that Diana Villiers is a woman, who is constantly seasick seems to be a way of paying homage with a devilish twinkle in his eye. That is the difference between a reader and a writer. To me it's just an oddly shaped stone, to a writer its a stone age arrow head, which got lodged between the ribs of a woolley mammoth, and thereby hangs a tale. Sorry for the extended post.
Lou

I have yet to go through the O'Brian books (and still have some from the Hornblower series), but as far as I am, I see this too. Jack is closer to Kirk (both his womanizer tendency and his build, not to mention he has his own Spock/McCoy hybrid in Stephen), than Kirk to the original Hornblower.

Wish I'd have time to read 'em all, but I'm writing too and (guilty) a certain other series distracts me. It's all DEATH's fault. As soon as I'm finished, I'll jump into MandC and Hornblower.

Maturin also serves as a plot device for O'Brian. Rather than the internal monologues of Forrester's Hornblower, Aubrey gets to have dialogues with another character. Maturin's status as a supernumerary allows Aubrey to open up to him in a way he could not and would not w/ a subordinate.

I have read several Hornblower books (and watched all the movies) but I have to say that I could never care for the Hornblower character. To me that is the main difference between the two series: character. I love how O'Brian has minor characters among the common seaman. I've always found the "men in the ranks" in any military writing to be far more interesting than the officers. I also found more wit in O'Brian's series than Hornblower.

Yes, I agree with much of the above, although I found the character of Hornblower becoming more attractive/ understandable with development. And I still think that Forrester wrote better battles!

Recognizing that for the most part, HH's later career was written before his earlier career. I actually found that I liked the young Hornblower better than what he becomes by the time he commands HMS Lydia. I was particularly a fan of HH as Commander of HMS Hotspur, which happened to be tha last completed Hornblower novel.

I have to assume that Forester's vision of Hornblower was evolving. Unfortunately, having written his life out of chronological order, it seemed to me that the character of HH actually devolved.

That's an interesting point, Joefirefighter. I do agree with you that Forester's writing was improving with time. The character changed also, and although this might be due to an evolving vision, it's fairly easy to justify this within the canon as being the result of Hornblower slowly building up this persona that he felt was essential. It's like he kept adding layers and layers of cold formality until even he couldn't find himself beneath the aristocratic officer anymore.

And Sieglinde, I agree with what you say about Kirk/Spock and Aubrey/Maturin. In that same mold, perhaps Hornblower is a good model for what Spock would have become if he hadn't had his friendship with Kirk. Spock would have kept burying his human side and trying to embrace only logic until he was as ossified as our skinny, stiff upper lip naval hero.

You know, that could be one of the keys to understanding the two series. You can think of the two as showing flip sides of the roll of friendship versus the lonelliness of command. All this makes the Bush friendship all the more tragic. As a lieutenant Horatio could have friendship, but as the Royal Navy captain Hornblower felt he had to wall himself off from friends and the relationship with Bush always had to stay strictly subordinate/superior. He had no one to open up to, and as an introspective person he could not relate to the crew except through projection of a persona. Aubrey always had his friendship with Maturin. He would have had genuinely affable relationships with his officers and crew, but not having Maturin as a sounding board and confidante would have worn at Jack's humanity too. A good historical analogy might be Captain Fitzroy of the Beagle. As an early Victorian naval officer he arguably might have been even more isolated than his Napoleonic counterparts, and he was very aware of the potential for going mad (having received command of his ship after the last captain, in a fit of depression, killed himself). And that's the chief reason he sought out a traveling companion of his own social class who would remain outside the chain of command and could therefore be his Maturin. And that's how Darwin got to see the world.

So that leaves me with the question-- would a Maturin-type friend have helped Hornblower avoid becoming his office. Certainly without such a friend HH, being less garrulous, would not have been able to rise above the strictures imposed both externally and internally. But would he have been able to confide in anyone? I don't know, but even the secretive Maturin could confide in his friend so perhaps there might have been hope for Hornblower after all.

I have to chime in with my two cents worth. I can clearly remember when my mother picked up Captain Horatio Hornblower for me at a yard sale. It had the white dust jacket with the (I believe) Wylie cover. I was quite young at the time, having just turned 9, but to this day - more than four decades later - the scent of pine sol (which she had used to wipe down the cover of the book) still triggers a feeling of boundless enthusiasm. I devoured it. I couldn't wait to get my hands on the rest of the series. By the time I was in Jr. High School, my passion for Hornblower and the RN was so great that most of my acquaintances (I had few "friends") were quite fed up with hearing about him and his contemporaries in the real world.

I will never be able to differentiate between my personality pre-Hornblower and post-Hornblower. I really don't know if he appealed to me so strongly that I had to emulate him or if he appealed to me because I was so like him to begin with. My ex wife finally read the Hornblowers some years after our divorce and mentioned that, had she read them earlier, perhaps she would have understood me better and avoided some later unpleasantness. Perhaps.

I have also read all of the POBs. I love them. They are unquestionably some of the most beautifully written books in the English language. Jack, however, is not my favorite character in hnf by any stretch of the imagination. Were I to know him personally, I quite probably would not get on with him at all. Hornblower, on the other hand, would be rather welcome in my circle of acquaintances. I don't find him difficult to understand nor less than human; I see him rather more like a mirror.

Seems to me O'Brian identified the lack of a confidant, especially one unversed in nautical matters, as a key failing of Forester's Hornblower series. Having created Maturin, he then put them together, Maturin and Aubrey, building their characters and traits to suit and complement each other, internally to his own needs rather than any deliberate ploy to be opposite to Hornblower. IMO the two series do not compare: Forester is more episodic, concerned with set-piece actions, whereas O'Brian takes us into the everyday world of the characters.

I absolutely have to agree with your last sentence Joolz. Episodic is exactly the word to describe Hornblower. In fact, that was one thing that actually kind of turned me off after reading Mr Midshipman Hornblower, was it felt like a series of disconnected vignettes.

That's very true, most of the books can be broken into separate sections. We discussed elsewhere that when 3 books were turned into the first film that such sections were omitted to shorten the script. Also some of his short stories are actually such sections that were left out of novels to avoid them becoming too lengthy.

Thank you all for this interesting discussion. Since I last read Hornblower I have read about 50 volumes of various HNF stories, and I should have better means to judge it and compare.